Podcast: Dating with Depression (or Another Mental Health Issue)

Inside Mental Health Podcast Guest and Host Bio

Kati Morton is widely recognized as a leading mental health advocate and educator. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist with a Master’s degree in Clinical Psychology from Pepperdine University. For over a decade, Kati has been using social media to share mental health information globally through her YouTube channel, which has amassed over 1.3 million subscribers and 124 million views. She is also a sought-after media personality, having made appearances on Dr. Phil, CBS The Doctors, KTLA’s Morning News, E! News, Fox 11 Good Day LA, and featured in Glamour UK magazine. Her first book, “Are u ok?: A Guide to Caring for Your Mental Health,” was released in December 2018, followed by her latest book, “Traumatized: Identify, Understand and Cope With PTSD and Emotional Stress,” which was released in September 2021.

Kati’s passion for mental health advocacy has helped her expand her online community to all major internet platforms, enabling her to respond to mental health questions from viewers worldwide. Her ultimate goal is to increase global awareness of mental health issues, improve access to mental health services, and reduce the stigma surrounding mental illness.

Our host, Gabe Howard, is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, “Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations,” available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author.

Gabe makes his home in the suburbs of Columbus, Ohio. He lives with his supportive wife, Kendall, and a Miniature Schnauzer dog that he never wanted, but now can’t imagine life without.

To book Gabe for your next event or learn more about him, please visit gabehoward.com.

Episode Transcript

Producer’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: You’re listening to Inside Mental Health: A Psych Central Podcast where experts share experiences and the latest thinking on mental health and psychology. Here’s your host, Gabe Howard.

Gabe Howard: Thanks for being here everyone. My name is Gabe Howard. Calling into the show today is Kati Morton. Kati is a licensed therapist, author, and public speaker who is best known for her YouTube channel focused on mental health. Plus, she’s the host of the popular podcast Ask Kati Anything. Kati, welcome to the podcast.

Kati Morton, LMFT: Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

Gabe Howard: I am super excited to be here because one of the questions that I get a lot as a person who lives with bipolar disorder is, how are you married? And they just want to know. They’re like, well, you live with serious and persistent mental illness. How have you been able to maintain a relationship? And I always point out a couple of things. One, I’m twice divorced, so it’s hard fought. I had to do a lot of work and I had a lot of stumbles, and I believe the colloquialism is I. I had to kiss a few frogs, right?

Kati Morton, LMFT: Mm-hmm.Yeah, I mean, it is it’s tricky because we’re still people. Humans want connection. That’s very normal. It’s a natural and normal human need to need attention, connection. Those are all good things. And to feel loved, to think that because we have a persistent mental illness means we can’t, I think is a kind of a misunderstanding slash part of the stigma and bipolar disorder in particular. We can talk about it can come along with some symptoms. It can make monogamy tricky. It can make long tum relationships and trust tricky. But yes, it is something that can happen. We can talk all about that. The hows, the whys and also the therapist side of me is like and the things to look out for and things you should do preemptively, as we all should.

Gabe Howard: I love the warning, right? Because I do think it’s valuable. One of the things that I heard a lot when I was, you know, trying to reach recovery and getting better, and I would say, well, I want a date or I went out on a date or I’m, I’m signing up for a dating app. I would always hear, you’re not ready for that yet. I’m like, well, I, you know, on one hand, I hear what you’re saying, right? If I were writing a story, I would not make the character date at this point in the story. But I’m, I’m not

Kati Morton, LMFT: Yeah.

Gabe Howard: Writing a story. This is real life. And I’m. I’m lonely. I’m lonely. I want to date. I want to get on with my life. I don’t want to feel different than all of my friends. I don’t want to be a third wheel. So, let’s start sort of at the beginning. This is sort of the put on your therapist hat for a moment. I’m sitting across from you and I’m like, okay, I live with depression and I want a date. And you’re like, I know you’re not ready yet, and you want to convince me that I need to wait and why? What advice would you give to somebody who you think should take a couple of months off from dating, but also doesn’t want to be alone?

Kati Morton, LMFT: There’s two pieces for me. The first that jumps out is functionality. Because if we’re struggling to shower every day, feed ourselves, take our medicine, get outside and walk our dog, get to work or school. If those things are really, really difficult for us, how are we going to add more? And that’s usually a question I’ll ask my patients who can’t get out of bed, and they’re lonely and they want somebody else. And I’m like, I always say, like, run me through what you do in a day. How long does that take you? You know, and what I’m getting at is. So, let’s say we want a date and let’s say her name is Susie. We love Susie. She seems really sweet. We want to meet up with her. Are we going to be able to get out of the house and meet her in time? Can we do that? Can we do that repeatedly? And that’s again, not saying you’re not ready. That’s just saying I don’t know if we have the bandwidth right now.

Gabe Howard: One of the things that was really compelling to me, just building on the Susie analogy, is, okay, I can’t get out of bed. I’m not making basic functions. I’m not getting things done. Like you said, you don’t have the bandwidth right now. And then there was this part of me that’s like, right, but Susie’s going to help. That’s exactly where my mind went. I know, and my solution to the problem is Susie. Right? That’s no problem. Susie’s going to help. She’s going to motivate me. She’s going to hug me and put all the broken pieces back together. I, I, I’m telling you, Susie’s going to fix it, Kati. I just, I just know it. She’s the one.

Kati Morton, LMFT: Well, the tricky part about that, which I guess kind of is part of my second piece to it, is that if we aren’t at least working on ourselves actively, we have a tendency to repeat old patterns that aren’t healthy. Meaning like, Susie’s going to fix me, right? This person I’m going to date is going to make all my problems go away. Is that what dating is to you? Is that the role that you want someone that you love to play? The fixer? Or do you want a partner? Do you want someone you work together with in tandem? Sometimes you can have down days, they can pick up the slack and vice versa. But I hate to tell you, no one can fix you, but you. Not even a therapist. I can assist you. I can help guide you in the way I can ask the right questions. I can challenge you in certain ways. But to put all of that pressure on a relationship, especially early on, can be too much for it. And it can mean that we pick people that are like our mother or father or a past relationship that failed, right? We can do that out of comfortability. And so that’s kind of that second piece is if a, if I don’t think a patient’s ready, it’s often because they continue to repeat this pattern. And we haven’t I mean I might have figured it out, but my patient hasn’t figured it out yet that that pattern is not healthy. And so, I will sometimes say to my patients like, hey, it seems like we continually date these people who aren’t emotionally available, let’s say, or have their own addiction problems. Maybe let’s consider why we’re choosing these people before we go out picking someone else.

Gabe Howard: In preparation for this episode, I talked to somebody who said which, which you reminded me of it. She said my picker was broken and I had to

Kati Morton, LMFT: Yes.

Gabe Howard: Fix my picker before I could go out. And I said, well, what did you mean by that? And she said, well, I was picking people who were like me who were also broken and thought that I was going to fix them. So, from the start of the relationship, we each thought the other one was the solution to all of our problems, which is a huge burden to put on somebody. She further stated that even if she could pick somebody of substance, those people would take one look at her and be like, look, you’re not ready. I’m not, I don’t I’m not interested in your drama. I don’t know what you’ve got going on. Like, I’m looking for a partner and you’re looking for somebody to fix you and I. I’m not signing up for that. But I really love the way that she worded it. My picker is broken. So, my question is you’ve got somebody in front of you right now. They’ve got they’re knowledgeable. Right. You have convinced them they’re picker is broken. And they say, Kati, how do I fix this?

Kati Morton, LMFT: A lot of it just has to do with, I always call it being a detective. An internal detective. Hmm. Let’s check our facts. We’re not going to make assumptions. We’re not going to jump to conclusions. Let’s look at what our past tells us. Who have we picked? Like she said, she saw her patterns. I feel like as a therapist, instead of calling me a therapist, I’d much rather be like a detective or a pattern finder, because that’s really what we do. And patterns can be good and bad. But in this case, if the other relationships have not turned out to be long term or, uh, I don’t know, healthy, maybe turned into marriage or whatever we’re looking for. They’ve never been that way. Why not? What do they have in common? Because they have us in common. We’re the person, right, that they’ve all dated. And so, I usually have my patients kind of journal contemplate in session about it. I might pull from my own knowledge of the situation like, hey, it seems like a lot of the people that you date can’t meet you where you are emotionally, or they’re just starting on their road to recovery and you’re like way, way ahead. And so, you feel like you’re always pulling them along. You know, there could be any number of things, but I always I even personally do that internal detective work, and I encourage everybody to because if we don’t understand broken or not working, then how are we going to fix it?

Gabe Howard: I think it’s really interesting that you point out that the patterns repeat, and the thing that all of those relationships and all of those repeating patterns have in common is you. It’s it’s us. I’ve been in these relationships and none of them went the distance. They all failed for one reason or another. Maybe it was timing, maybe it was unlucky circumstances. Maybe it was my fault. Maybe it was their fault. Maybe it was their fault because I. I have to be honest, Kati, the thing that I’m going to always say is, look, it’s not my fault. They broke up with me. They broke my heart. I was willing to keep putting in the work and they just up and left me. So therefore, frankly, it’s all their fault. And especially for me personally, I was always the one who got dumped. I have never, ever in my life gotten to be the person who does the dumping. People always broke up with me. It was never ever the other way around. Yeah, I’m so glad we’re doing this episode now that I think about it so I can reflect back on my dating history, because this is just bringing up some great stuff, some great memories.

Kati Morton, LMFT [Laughter]

Gabe Howard: But, but, but seriously, how do I start to learn from these patterns? Because I was always real quick to remember that and point it out that it’s not my fault that I’m single. The whole world just doesn’t see my greatness in a relationship.

Kati Morton, LMFT: I mean, that’s in therapy. It would take much longer, but to kind of cut the crap and get like straight down to it like.

Gabe Howard: Wait, wait. You’re telling me you can’t listen to a podcast and just be cured? Are you telling me that people are going to have to do more work than listen to this episode?

Kati Morton, LMFT: Unfortunately, yeah. Because patterns.

Gabe Howard: Just, mind blown.

Kati Morton, LMFT: Well, these patterns didn’t start overnight, right. So, we can’t fix them overnight. But a key thing to remember and this is true for every relationship. So, hear me out. It’s always 50/50. And people would say well what if they abused me? Well, we selected that person for some reason and we stayed for some reason. Does that mean that the abuse is our fault? Absolutely not. But that relationship we’re talking specific to the relationship is a 50/50 split, always. In the case of, well, they dumped me, they couldn’t see how great I was. It’s their fault. My question would be, well, what were the reasons they said they dumped you for? Usually, people give reasons even if we don’t believe them. What did they say? And then I might say to you, well, was there anything going on in that relationship that you didn’t like? Did you ever get into arguments? What were those arguments about? Did you ever feel upset or find yourself crying, wishing they’d call you? Tell me about that. Right. Those are kind of the conversations we want to get into, because sure, they left us. They’re , they’re the reason the relationship ended, yes, but it ended for a reason. And we have to figure out what that pattern or what those reasons were. Because in there, even if we aren’t able to acknowledge, hey, I had my own fault in it, we need to understand it. So again, we don’t repeat it. And a part of that will obviously be us acknowledging that we’re not perfect, because otherwise we’re just going to get in that pattern again. And it’s always going to be someone else’s problem. And that’s probably affecting other parts of your life where you can’t admit wrongness at work or with friends, and you’re probably having a tough time.

Gabe Howard: I think it’s really interesting. What you’re describing sort of reminds me of black and white thinking it’s this, this all or none thinking. Right. It was, it was, it was all them. It was not me. Okay, well, that doesn’t make any sense. Uh, so maybe it was a little bit me, but it was more them. Okay, sure. But how does that serve you? They’re gone. That’s always what I try to kind of think about. Well, I’ve decided it was 80% them and 20% me. Okay, well, you can’t do anything about the 80%. That’s them. So, if that makes you feel better to assign them more blame, that’s great. But what are you doing about the 20%? And I want to focus on something that you said at the beginning. It’s your fault if you picked them. Many people don’t believe that. Many people are. I can hear the collective, you know, gasp in the room and you’re like, how could you blame somebody for getting in a bad relationship? So, I want to address that a little more, because I do think that we have some culpability in who we spend our time with, who we choose to date. And I think it’s a really vital question to ask ourselves why?

Kati Morton, LMFT: Oh no, I agree with you 100%. It’s interesting because I think, um, the word blame is a big word and people can shut down when it comes to that. I think as a therapist we get really, really good at using different words and different ways of saying something. So, I might say to a patient, it seems like a lot of your relationships have been very similar to this. What is it about them that attracted you? And so, I’m not really saying like, hey, your pickers broke and you picked the wrong person. Why are you doing that? Stop it. As I might do if you were my friend.

Gabe Howard: [Laughter] Right?

Kati Morton, LMFT: Like, why do you keep dating these jerks? Geez. Um. But we have to understand. I think there is a powerful piece. I always tried to tell people. And you mentioned this, Gabe. And this is why I love you, is like. You’re like, you can’t control other people. You say, like, what do you do with that? 20%? Okay, 80% them blah, blah, blah. What do you do with the 20? Right. We can’t control other people no matter how hard we try, no matter how creative we think we are or how underlying our manipulation is, we cannot make people do what we want them to do. So, what do we do? We have to control ourselves. We have to understand ourselves. And that’s how I usually broach the subject is like, okay, well, yeah, okay. They’re a jerk. They did this and I don’t disagree. I never fight back when they’re like, but they did da da da da. And they were such. And then they’re the ones that broke up, remember? I’m like, yeah, yes, yes, yes. Totally agree. What could we have done differently? Because we don’t want to be with them anyway.

Gabe Howard: [Laughter]

Kati Morton, LMFT: And I know as a human, that’s hard to do.

Sponsor Break

Gabe Howard: And we’re back discussing dating while depressed with licensed therapist and YouTuber Kati Morton, LMFT.

Kati Morton, LMFT: I know that as someone who dated in my 20s, you know, like I made bad decisions. But if I don’t reflect on those decisions, if I don’t acknowledge, hey, I keep picking someone who lies. Why? Or I keep picking someone who always chooses their friends over me or work over me. Then it’s helpful information because then if I recognize, oh my God, I’m always picking the same person, which can take a while to notice our patterns,

Gabe Howard: Yeah. You know, for a long time for me. And I know this is true for, for many people, it was just rinse and repeat. Rinse and repeat. Rinse and repeat. And and I a really valuable thing to try and figure out in therapy, at least it was for me, is why do we keep doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?

Kati Morton, LMFT: The definition of insanity.

Gabe Howard: Right. It is the definition of insanity. And if you think about it for even a moment, if you did it in any other area, we would immediately recognize it was stupid. If every day you sat down on the couch and spilled soup on yourself, you would. You would change the way you carried the soup. You would change the way you sat down on the couch.

Kati Morton, LMFT: Yeah.

Gabe Howard: You would do something different. But yet. And if people pointed it out to you, you’d be like, well, yeah, that makes sense. I keep spilling hot soup on myself every, every single day. For some reason, in my mind, Kati, people are eating a lot of soup for dinner.

Kati Morton, LMFT [Laughter]

Gabe Howard: But to segue ever so slightly, I do think about my own journey. I’ve been divorced twice. So that that was I made two mistakes. I picked the wrong life partner twice, and it’s difficult and it leaves scars and I’m thinking about the in between. I finally listened to my therapist and I decided to be single. Yes, I did, I did, and I was I was very happy about that. I was very lonely, I’ll be the first to admit, and I’m not saying that, but I, I did it, I did it, I did it, I did it. And one of the things that my therapist asked me is she said, what are you looking for in a life partner? And I said, well, I don’t know. And she said, well, what do you mean by that? And I said, well, here’s what I do. I just date people. And like, if somebody is interested in me and I’m like, I can, I can deal with this and I. I don’t know what she was thinking because I cannot read minds, but I’ve thought about that moment a lot and she had to be thinking, wow, you’re dumb. And I only say it because that that really isn’t the way, right? I should have at least a basic idea of what I’m trying to get out of the relationship, and I had none. That was a lot of work for me. When you’re working with people and you’re asking them, did do they say stuff like this? Have you worked with patients like me before who just have no idea what we want out of a relationship, yet we’re positive we need to be in one right now.

Kati Morton, LMFT: Almost 100% of people. So, you’re not alone.

Gabe Howard: Oh, good. I’m not alone, I feel seen.

Kati Morton, LMFT: Well, yeah. Everybody. I feel like everybody either has no idea. Like you. They’re like, well, I don’t know. I just date people. And if it works out, it works out. If I’m attracted to them, it works out. Yay, right? Party, party. Or I’ll have patients who will have like this where they’re like, well, I just want someone who’s financially stable who can support me, and they want like a rescuer, and they won’t call it that, they’ll cloak it in something else. Those are kind of the two that I get. And I think it’s probably because of my patients, because people who’ve been traumatized want to be rescued, because nobody came to rescue them when they were younger. And without realizing it, they look for that. And also, most of us, mental illness or not, most people growing up in our 20s and 30s primary dating years do not take the time to consider what’s important to them. We just go out, we meet people, and if we like them, we try it out. And I’m not saying that there’s anything wrong with that, but if we are seriously dating, if it isn’t just one-night stands or I’ll just go out to dinner, blah, blah blah,

Kati Morton, LMFT: If we’re looking for a partner, then we need to take that time to do the inventory a little bit. What are the things that worked and didn’t work before? What are the things I thought I wanted that I didn’t really want? Maybe I thought I wanted someone focused on their job, but then I felt neglected and that triggered its own set of stuff. Ugh. You know, be honest with yourself about what sounds like you should want and what you really do need, and then talk to your therapist about it. Because our needs can come from old stories. We don’t want to keep repeating, but it’s all good information, right? And nobody’s going to be perfect. Divorce is very common for a reason, Gabe. It does come with its own baggage and scars. But you also learned. And we get better. It takes some time getting to know ourselves.

Gabe Howard: But once we know ourselves. Kati, one of the things that we know about ourselves is that we’re living with depression, right? We’re living with a mental illness or a mental health issue. We know that the public doesn’t really understand that. So chances are you’re probably in a relationship with somebody who doesn’t know what it’s like to live with depression. So we have to not only teach them about ourselves, but we have to teach them about depression, and then we have to teach them about us with depression. And that just adds a whole other layer onto this whole mess. How is that all impacted? How is that all mixed together?

Kati Morton, LMFT: That’s a great question. And I think the truth is that it’s something every relationship is going to have to do. The difference between those without mental illness and those with mental illness is that when we have a mental illness, a piece of that is going to be the education about how our mental illness feels to us. Because I could read every book about bipolar disorder, but that doesn’t tell me what Gabe Howard experiences, and I don’t think

Gabe Howard: Unless you read my book. I should point that. No,

Kati Morton, LMFT: Yes.

Gabe Howard: I’m just. I’m just teasing you.

Kati Morton, LMFT: Perfect plug. Perfect time to plug. So yes, if I read “Mental Illness Is an Asshole,” I could then better understand you specifically. But I think that’s the important piece is we can’t we can’t make assumptions about each other. We all need to learn better how to support, like you said, you want to vent. They didn’t know they wanted to fix. Then you feel not only misunderstood, but you don’t feel supported. And then they feel disconnected and confused. Right? And that’s not where relationships build and grow. So, there’s a communication block or misunderstanding that needs to be cleaned up. And that can happen through you expressing early on in a relationship. Hey, I vent a lot and I don’t want you to fix. Or you can ask of your partner, hey, before you offer me any advice, could you do me a favor and just ask if I want to be listened to or if I’m looking for, for advice or if I’m looking for you to fix something? Do I want you to learn or do I want you to, you know, what are you looking for? And they can ask that. That’s a beautiful thing to ask in all relationships before we offer advice, because sometimes people don’t want it and that’s okay. And so yes, all relationships need to have those conversations. Yes, we need to tell each other what we really need and want, which is why that inventory is even more helpful up front, because then you’ll have a better understanding of what you really need and want, and maybe what needs. You didn’t get met in old relationships, just as an FYI. But then if we have a mental illness, we’re going to have to. And I know this sucks, and you could be annoyed by it, and I don’t want to talk to anybody about it. But to educate them about what your mental illness feels like to you. And I know this will come with the immediate question of, well, when do I tell them on the first date? And my answer is probably not.

Gabe Howard: Well, that actually was my very, very next question. These are difficult conversations to have with people. I mean, sitting people down and saying, I live with a serious and persistent mental illness, whether it’s bipolar disorder, schizophrenia or depression, that’s like a big topic to lay on a stranger, especially if you met online. So just out of curiosity,

Kati Morton, LMFT: Mhm.

Gabe Howard: Putting it in your dating profile on the dating site is probably a bad idea. Okay,

Kati Morton, LMFT: Yes, I think it is a bad idea.

Gabe Howard: Okay, you can’t see her, but she is shaking her head no. In just the most dramatic fashion. Like just like she actually looks shocked. I think she might think that I’m stupid for asking the question, but okay, so

Kati Morton, LMFT: No, never.

Gabe Howard: No, never. Uh, but when is a good time? Like, how do you know? I imagine there’s no set answer to this question. It’s different for everybody. But how do you broach the subject?

Kati Morton, LMFT: I think either, there’s a couple of reasons it can come out okay. Number one could be if in the relationship you start having an episode, that episode could be a depressive episode. That episode could be a hypomanic episode. You could be going through a tough time with your eating disorder, your self-injury urges have increased, or your anxiety is through the roof and you’re having panic attacks all the time. Whatever it is. If it’s affecting your ability to be in that relationship, that’s a prime time to tell them. And we don’t have to tell them everything up front. This is a continual conversation. Do not verbally diarrhea everything that’s ever happened. I find people get overwhelmed and then they often like ghost us or leave. Let’s start small and build from there. So, let’s say our struggle is depression, because that’s kind of what we’ve talked about a little bit here. We could say something to the effect of, hey, I’ve just been having a really tough time. Work’s been stressful. I’m feeling kind of down. I don’t really feel like hanging out this week, but I just want to let you know, sometimes I go through these periods where I just feel a little down, and I know some people might be like, but that’s not the full truth.

Kati Morton, LMFT: Again, we don’t have to share it all at once. If they ask follow ups and we feel comfortable, we can start sharing more, or we just start there and then let’s say in another year, because these things can be cyclical. Around the same time, we have that downturn again and we can tell them, hey, remember I told you, you know, it’s actually major depressive disorder, I manage it, I try to do my best. But this year, this time of year is particularly difficult. So as the relationship grows, we can share more. And to your question or kind of comment about putting it in dating profiles, it’s not that I think that’s terribly wrong. It’s that as a therapist, I’m never a fan of that being our identity. I think it can be a piece of who we are, but that’s not all we’re about.

Gabe Howard: Kati, there’s just there’s so much to this, and everybody’s relationship is going to look different. And I really just want to make sure that the listeners hear that it’s work because it’s work and the work is worth it. But it’s not a simple thing. I think rom coms and stories and love songs have made it seem like you’re supposed to just like walk out one day, lays eyes on somebody, fall in love and just live happily ever after. And I, I really just want to give a lot of pushback that it’s not just people with depression who are having trouble finding and maintaining relationships. The divorce rate is way too high for

Kati Morton, LMFT: Yes.

Gabe Howard: It just to be people with mental illness getting a divorce.

Kati Morton, LMFT: Agreed, agreed. And it is hard work. And we love rom coms. We love, you know, romantic music because it simplifies and glamorizes almost like rose colored glasses at real life. It’s almost like the reason that we love beautiful photos on Instagram. We’re like, wow, they look so happy on this vacation. Oh, but we know the children are screaming behind the scenes. They’re racing here and there. They’re jet lagged like life is life. We all know it. We just like to forget. Sometimes it’s that suspension from reality that we love so much. But yes, it can look, relationships can look a lot of different ways. Don’t make anybody tell you that. It has to be this one kind of way, and it has to be monogamous, and it has to be forever. And we have to have children. And you can have those things too. But feel free to like it’s a relationship buffet. Take what you want and leave the rest and find a partner who’s happy with that. That same choosing that you’ve done.

Gabe Howard: Kati, thank you so much for your time. Where can folks find you online?

Kati Morton, LMFT: Uh, just Kati Morton. K A T I M O R T O N, all across socials. My YouTube channel is probably the, you know, has like 1500 videos. I have TikTok, Instagram, all that good stuff.

Gabe Howard: All right. Kati, thank you so much for being here.

Kati Morton, LMFT: Thanks for having me.

Gabe Howard: Well, you are very welcome, Kati. And listen, I want to give a big thank you to all of our listeners for being here today. My name is Gabe Howard, and I’m an award winning public speaker, and I could be available for your next event. I also wrote the book, “Mental Illness Is an Asshole and Other Observations,” which you can get on Amazon. However, you can grab a signed copy with free show swag or learn more about me just by heading over to my website, gabehoward.com. Wherever you downloaded this episode, please follow or subscribe to the show. It is absolutely free and you don’t want to miss a thing. And listen up! Can you do me a favor? Recommend the show. Share it on social media. Send an email. Send a text message, mention in support group hell, share it at a family function because sharing the show is how we’re going to grow. I will see everybody next Thursday on Inside Mental Health.

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